Founders Documents, University of Chicago |
Amendment VIII
Document 13
Debate in Virginia Ratifying Convention
16 June 1788
Elliot 3:447--48, 451--52
Elliot 3:447--48, 451--52
Patrick Henry: . . . Congress, from their general powers, may fully go into business of human legislation. They may legislate, in criminal cases, from treason to the lowest offence--petty larceny. They may define crimes and prescribe punishments. In the definition of crimes, I trust they will be directed by what wise representatives ought to be governed by. But when we come to punishments, no latitude ought to be left, nor dependence put on the virtue of representatives.
What says our [Virginia] bill of rights?--"that excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Are you not, therefore, now calling on those gentlemen who are to compose Congress, to . . . define punishments without this control? Will they find sentiments there similar to this bill of rights? You let them loose; you do more--you depart from the genius of your country. . . .
What says our [Virginia] bill of rights?--"that excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Are you not, therefore, now calling on those gentlemen who are to compose Congress, to . . . define punishments without this control? Will they find sentiments there similar to this bill of rights? You let them loose; you do more--you depart from the genius of your country. . . .
In this business of legislation, your members of Congress will loose the restriction of not imposing excessive fines, demanding excessive bail, and inflicting cruel and unusual punishments. These are prohibited by your declaration of rights. What has distinguished our ancestors?--That they would not admit of tortures, or cruel and barbarous punishment.
But Congress may introduce the practice of the civil law, in preference to that of the common law. They may introduce the practice of France, Spain, and Germany--of torturing, to extort a confession of the crime. They will say that they might as well draw examples from those countries as from Great Britain, and they will tell you that there is such a necessity of strengthening the arm of government, that they must have a criminal equity, and extort confession by torture, in order to punish with still more relentless severity.
We are then lost and undone.
We are then lost and undone.
25 comments:
Garner postscript reflects his apparent worth to society ----> http://www.vocativ.com/usa/race/eric-garners-grave/?utm_campaign=December&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=outbrain
Nah BD, your not-seeism is glowing a bright sphinctorial orange again. Any man reduced to selling single cigarettes to supplement the household cash flow, was obviously suffering from a level of poverty which doesn't leave much in the way of discretionary income for "magical thinking" funereal goings on.
Why, the way you excoriate N-1 magical-thinking types, one would expect you to immediately note the consistency of Garner's family's predicament both during his life and after his death. I guess bias running to the level of mental illness detracts from your generalized lucidity and blinds you to the posture you routinely pretend to employ.
...It is obvious from the condition of the gravesite that No One really gave a serious rat's ass about Garner. They just wanted some issue to go forth and riot loot sue and generally raise hell. Good grief, even the lowliest gangbanger in the 'hood goes bye-bye he gets tons of wreaths, flowers, decorations, etc. You'd think at least his relatives and a few warped-fringe Garner Lovers would be showing a bit of posthumous respect. A true graphic portrayal of worthlessness.....
a true, graphic portrayal of poverty, but then, you'd already know that if you were functioning at anything more than a debilitated 5th grade levelA discoursive rehearsal of certain incidents of modern life will show the organic relation of the anthropomorphic cults to the barbarian culture and temperament. It will likewise serve to show how the survival and efficacy of the cults and he prevalence of their schedule of devout observances are related to the institution of a leisure class and to the springs of action underlying that institution. Without any intention to commend or to deprecate the practices to be spoken of under the head of devout observances, or the spiritual and intellectual traits of which these observances are the expression, the everyday
phenomena of current anthropomorphic cults may be taken up from the point of view of the interest which they have for economic theory. What can properly be spoken of here are the tangible, external features of devout observances. The moral, as well as the devotional value of the life of faith lies outside of the scope of the present inquiry. Of course no question is here entertained as to
the truth or beauty of the creeds on which the cults proceed. And even their remoter economic bearing can not be taken up here; the subject is too recondite and of too grave import to find a place in so slight a sketch. https://www.brocku.ca/MeadProject/Veblen/Veblen_1899/Veblen_1899_12.html
You are increasingly beginning to demonstrate that no amount of effort is sufficient to the task of helping you across your deficits....,
I never like it when family members side with their family member no matter how bad their action is. They say things like I can't go against him cause he is my blood and crap like that. I am pretty sure if I screw up, my parents, my brothers and sister will side with my wife if I am the bad one. Cops should really do the same thing. We can understand split second decisions, but sometimes there is just more at play in he decisions to put certain people in uniforms.
"The Cleveland police officer who shot and killed 12-year-old Tamir Rice had issues with handling guns during his brief tenure with a suburban police department.
A Nov. 29, 2012 letter contained in Tim Loehmann's personnel file from the Independence Police Department says that during firearms qualification training he was "distracted" and "weepy."
"He could not follow simple directions, could not communicate clear thoughts nor recollections, and his handgun performance was dismal," according to the letter written by Deputy Chief Jim Polak of the Independence police." end
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_police_officer_who_s.html
At the very least the department should be able to show they had knowledge of this and they retested to see if he now is capable. It goes on to say:
"The letter recommended that the department part ways with Loehmann, who went on to become a police officer with the Cleveland Division of Police.
"I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct the deficiencies," Polak said."
Somebody really should have been able to say they explored this at the Cleveland department. But they didn't.
Based on the consistent application of this logicI never like it when family members side with their family member no
matter how bad their action is. They say things like I can't go against
him cause he is my blood and crap like that. I am pretty sure if I screw
up, my parents, my brothers and sister will side with my wife if I am
the bad one. Cops should really do the same thing. We can understand
split second decisions, but sometimes there is just more at play in he
decisions to put certain people in uniforms.You already have exactly what it takes to understand why Dick "wrecked'em" Cheney's worldwide prison-rape program was and remains so objectionable and why it's imperative that every person involved with that fuster cluck must be prosecuted to the full extent of the laws that they flagrantly violated.
"You already have exactly what it takes to understand why Dick "wrecked'em" Cheney's worldwide prison-rape program..."
I really don't, I have a report by democrats who lost their power and now are releasing a study which began in 2009 reporting on actions which alone are bad. We have no released information on what the information was that was extracted, nor do we know which individuals these techniques were done to. The investigation didn't even include interviewing those involved.
I think I would at least give my family member a chance to explain what they were trying to accomplish, and what they did accomplish. I would also like to read some opposing information rather than just current talking points from the democrat report. For instance this guy here had a totally different perspective:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-interrogations-saved-lives-1418142644
As for your idea that Cheney authorized rape of these terrorist killers, I haven't seen anybody link him to authorizing such a thing. So it would be difficult for me to stand up and say prosecute him. However if the prisoners were being raped, I would agree that those who did the raping should be prosecuted, like prosecutions happened in abu ghraib. And if Bush and Cheney were found to be ordering prison guards and interrogators to rape the terrorist, I would agree they should be prosecuted. Do you have any links that you can share that show the guards or interrogators were raping prisoners and it was commanded from high levels?
I'ma give your latest round of post hoc rationalization its due, and simply go with the newest two comments at this stale Fox News WSJ article:@Shay Fish First, I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm responding to the claims made by the ex-directors that EIT produced actionable intelligence. One of the first claims made here is that EIT used on Zabaydeh produced intel that led to the capture of KSM. The report says that the CIA used a paid informant, Asset X, to get the location of KSM. Asset X was paid $25
million. So which is it? Now, if Asset X didn't lead us to KSM, why was he paid $25 mil? The obvious answer is that Asset X was the lynchpin in the hunt for KSM, not EIT, as claimed in this article. Second, name the interrogators who said EIT did produce results.
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-six-letter-text-message-that-led-the-cia-to-the-mastermind-of-911 Ray Gun 5 days agoJon, you're talking to yourself. Please shut up! No one is listening.
Mark McNely 6 days ago
What has been so conspicuously missing in all of this is an articulation of the threat we face, putting these actions in context.
The fact is that a significant minority of a very large population have metastasized into venal, violent killers, able to strap bombs onto their children, anxious to kill innocents, so sure are they of their self-righteious position.
We have seen ideological hysteria before, Catholics burning witches, Stalin and Mao killing tens of millions of their own, Hitler blaming and exterminating Jews.
The lack of leadership from most imams in fighting against this cancer in their midst speaks to their tacit support of it. This all needs to be called out for what it is. Waffling is not appropriate, and it negates our ability to lead. It is time to define the threat we face, then step back and look at what is appropriate, or not, in fighting it.
I am not understanding why you are you arguing this. Is it your position that if the CIA did acquire actionable intelligence that saved lives, you wouldn't have a problem with enhanced interrogation techniques? Shouldn't your response be, I don't care how many lives were saved, it is just wrong to make these killing, torturing, raping slave driving terrorist feel any discomfort or humiliation. Isn't that your position?
Otherwise you're on pretty thin ground, a partisan exclusively democrat 5 year 40 million dollar report that doesn't interview/interrogate any one who participated in what the report is about and check out their story. And the group being slammed can't offer classified evidence to explain what the methods produced. I can't imagine you have a number of lives saved cutoff that you would decide enhanced interrogation techniques would be justified. So if all the sudden the CIA decides to declassify documents to defend itself, to show a hundred or a thousand or ten thousand innocents were saved, its not going to have you justify treating these killers disrespectfully is it?
Torture is illegal. The CIA acquired no actionable intelligence from torture. The Bush Administration violated applicable laws and in the process further undermined the rule of law. I don't entertain the fabulous games of the imagination which so powerfully preoccupy you - that you're unable to surmount these and objectively review the evidence presented to your own eyes.
I needn't concern myself with further wishful thinking about documents showing that the CIA saved anyone via its worldwide prison-rape operations. I know exactly where this mess came from, I know how widespread and pervasive it has been, and my condemnation of it and its practitioners is blunt and truthful, not disrespectful. These scum pretending as "patriots" and "protectors" are nothing more than predatory perverts given political license to operate by people like you. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/12/chicago-police-torture-jon-burge/383839/
Or given license by us... maybe not you, but certainly the in this case the American people, including the partisan hypocrites who wasted 40 million dollars giving us this report.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/todays-cia-critics-once-urged-the-agency-to-do-anything-to-fight-al-qaeda/2014/12/05/ac418da2-7bda-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html
@CNu..."The CIA acquired no actionable intelligence..."
BD does not believe that, no way. Do you really believe you're being told everything the CIA knows (ROTFLMAO)...??
You never let the enemy know what you know, that's simply good intelligence practices. Otherwise utility of that knowledge might be compromised...
Are you making a straight-faced argument that secret Congressional approval is equatable with the will of the American people? You are saying the CIA "does what needs to be done," and also that "our representatives are fairly elected and fulfill the desires of the people?"
Or are you just arguing to be an ass?
It's not that it's a hypocritical position; it's not. I'm just incredulous that on the one hand you are a gritty, pragmatic realist about what "needs to be done," and also believe in a functioning representative democracy where we are all culpable for the actions of senior government officials, doing our will with earnestness and sincerity.
GTFOH
No I am not saying that, we have Obama card don't we, certainly the American people didn't approve of that, but my guess is you haven't delved into the polls on this issue. Search all over if you like.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11297562/Three-quarters-of-Americans-believe-torture-can-be-justified-poll-finds.html
Here I'll even give an article that certain to give subrealism an issue link.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/12/why_americans_support_torture_we_accept_the_abuse_and_cruel_punishment_of.html
sorry that was supposed to be [we have Obamacare don't we,]
lol, thanks btw for calling out the Archdruid Dark Age America jawnts in your latest. The battles underway for the resource core - and the inane utterances from our various and sundry political peanut galleries in response to the same - make for a truly fascinating spectacle.
lol, it is what you is....,
Thanks. People are crazy. I think it's so devastating to see the actual unvarnished, non-narrative truth (life is not a movie, you aren't a main character, there's not a solution) that most people can't hang. Even those who claim to "get it" either have a masturbatory Soldier of Fortune fantasy (looking at you BD) or they have some stupid solution (Bomb Iran, Fire Obama, Fire Republicans,Stop Fracking, Start Fracking) as if this a problem to be solved instead of a predicament to deal with.
I was thinking about Makheru's worldview and realized he proves my(your?) point on race as a social construct. It's not a strong enough bond for meaningful action, which is why it's heavily pushed as a significant, meaningful affiliation by TPTB. If it were really anywhere near as meaningfu as tribal, familial alliances ( a la Afghani tribes) NOI and others wouldn't have to spend so much time pushing racial affinity as a viable strategy. And totally bombing. You are going to stand with your white neighbor who feeds your cat and babysat your daughter before you are going to align with "blackness" rolling down your block in some holy race war.
Not a value judgement, just a cold look at the facts. Race is a shitty rallying point for community--it's a maguffin.
Which is NOT me, the upper class white guy from California, saying racism isn't real or doesn't have harmful effects. It's just that racism is a tool for control and division of the lower classes; it's not a heartfelt ideology of the rich and powerful (by and large, exceptions abound amongst us pattern monkeys). It causes real harm, and is really fucked up. It's just not the goal, it's one of the tools of control. I just wish we, at least here in the sewing circle, could at least have a consensus on this point. It makes what's happening make much more sense.
We as a sewing circle do get it (Dawn and ken being the uninvited dweebs that just keep showing up.)
Jeff Follmer is 100% nimrod. You can tell he's an idiot by the nobody's home look in his eyes. Seeing him with that much responsibility is almost terrifying. That's the guy they send to negotiate with the city government and he isn't smart enough to be diplomatic. He's too slow to see that he's turning people against police unions.
No different than Rooda in STL http://subrealism.blogspot.com/2014/12/corrupt-overseer-rooda-thug-union.html or Lynch in NYC http://subrealism.blogspot.com/2014/12/ny-police-benevolent-association.html - Ironic that knuckle-dragging nipple-heads have been elected to represent the interests of overseers...,
Well, I'm fairly sure Makheru doesn't buy it, and I actually don't think Ed is fully on board either. I'm a member of Ed's Facebook group (I'm not hard to find, look for the one white guy), and I like to think I provide some of the most concrete, actionable advice of anyone in that group (Ed himself, and maybe Cleaven excepted.)
Makheru is one of those guys I have a ton of respect for, and also think is an idiot. He has a ton of passion, conviction, and genuine personal sacrifice...for a flawed ideology (to my mind). There are very few people who are sincere, passionate, and self abnegating. I have a lot more in common with him than I do pussies who agree with all my philosophical points but aren't MEN.
I just wish the MEN of the world could be a team. It's SO obvious who we are. We agree on nothing. We just know who the opportunistic, punk ass bitches, hypothetically on our sides are. And I ain't calling you delicious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM04ig-j4fw
Maybe I'm not fully on board because I actually have to see the dead bodies of young people or deal with what marginalized people look like due to a systematic structure. It's one thing to dream of of men working together, but it's another to see in real world other men proud of being headhunters and sporting the shrunken head of one of your tribe members in glee. I get to see the bodies and the mortuary science people do not always do a good job on them either.
The Facebook group I have, many of the members have zero channels to know anything and it is not because they were stupid, they just didn't have anybody to tell them or show them. The group has organically started to first help the black people who join become global competitive through STEM. I see the natural flow of the group and working to see them get there before the group can truly go global. If the group go global now, many of those black people currently not exposed to global competitiveness would feel alienated and will opt out due to their lack of exposure to true competitiveness.
While I agree with your assessment of Makheru being an idiot chasing a flawed ideology, I disagree with your assessment of passion, conviction and genuine personal sacrifice as Makheru is nothing more than a black-identity clinging coward. Passion, conviction and personal sacrifice drives a person to evolve and adapt to the current landscape and that means learning STEM, engaging people to evolve and adapt and fight a real fight directly with the real enemy. Makheru actively hides behind the same tired black-identity woe-is-me victim with a sense of entitlement persona that he probably been doing for 30 years with no evolution and he is content with that.
You want me at the table, then acknowledge the bodies on your own accord first without having General Patton having to force you to see the bodies.
"While I agree with your assessment of Makheru being an idiot chasing a
flawed ideology, I disagree with your assessment of passion, conviction
and genuine personal sacrifice as Makheru is nothing more than a
black-identity clinging coward."
Here we go again. Some folks never grow out of infantile disorder, but I'm not climbing into your gutter. If you can offer a cogent critique of what you think my ideology is, I'll be glad to respond. Otherwise, have fun in the gutter.
... for a flawed ideology (to my mind). Do you care to explained what my flawed ideology is?
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