Thursday, August 21, 2014

if a riot is the voice of the unheard, a beheading is __________________?

salon |  “Is this performance art, at this time, about what it looks like to be out of touch with one’s constituents?” MSNBC’s Melissa Harris-Perry asked a panel of guests on her Sunday program.
“They’re so out of touch,” public radio host Marc Steiner responded. “I mean police brutality and racist attacks against black citizens and people of color are universal in this country. But these folks are so out of touch, they don’t even know how to fake it…. The governor can’t do it. None of them can do it.”

“They’ve never had to,” author Jelani Cobb pointed out. And he’s right—as numerous people have pointed out recently. Ferguson is supermajority black, but its police force is overwhelmingly white, as is its city council. While  some—most notably the renowned MonkeyCage blog—have elucidated the structural forces at work, producing very low black voter turnout in the local, non-partisan, off-year elections (widespread “reforms” of the Progressive Era, during which voter participation fell significantly), Cobb’s recent reporting for the New Yorker took a more critical angle.

First, he took note of the role of felony Missouri’s felon-disfranchisement laws. One local explained, “If you’re a student in one of the black schools here and you get into a fight you’ll probably get arrested and charged with assault. We have kids here who are barred from voting before they’re even old enough to register.” Next, he pointed out that blacks were actually losing ground in terms of political leadership:
Ferguson had, instead, recently seen two highly visible African-American public officials lose their jobs. Two weeks before Brown was shot, Charles Dooley, an African-American who has served as St. Louis County Executive for a decade, lost a bitter primary election to Steve Stenger, a white county councilman, in a race that, whatever the merits of the candidates, was seen as racially divisive. Stenger lobbed allegations of financial mismanagement and incompetence, and worse. Bob McCulloch, the county prosecutor appeared in an ad for Stenger, associating Dooley with corruption; McCulloch would also be responsible for determining whether to charge Darren Wilson. In December, the largely white Ferguson-Florissant school board fired Art McCoy, the superintendent, who is African-American.
As reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, McCoy’s firing was as shrouded in secrecy as Michael Brown’s killing. Nor was McCulloch’s racial animosity in electioneering anomalous either. Back in 2006, Missouri was ground zero in the GOP’s spurious voter fraud allegations which lay at the heart of the U.S. Attorneys firing scandal. Perhaps most notably, just five days before the election, Bradley Schlozman, then interim U.S. attorney in Kansas City, announced indictments against four voter-registration workers—a move contradicting the DOJ’s own guidelines that such actions “”must await the end of the election.”  In short, Republican politics in Missouri have not simply relied on passive racial resentments, rather, they have actively stirred them up.  Such behavior only makes sense in a framework of racial isolation, and hostility.

With all that in mind, it’s easy to follow Cobb’s continuing line of thought on the “Melissa Harris-Perry Show,” as he said, “Being there, the impression you get is that these people remind you of those southern towns in the 1960s who had no idea how their actions looked on television. The television was the thing that made segregation untenable. Because the rest of the world could see and say, ‘This looks barbaric.’”

“ I don’t think that the people here have any sense of how this looks in the broader spectrum, and talking to people in the community about that, and they say, ‘Well, they’ve never had to. If they have control over the power system here, the structure here, who are they accountable to?’ So they’ve never even had to go through the pantomime of accountability before.”


BigDonOne said...

It was just announced yesterday that one-third of the American population (109m) is receiving 'Means-Tested-Benefits' from the government. It takes more resources and intimidation to control that seething horde of EeeeBeeTee-swiping LOOOZZ3rz., irresponsible parasites who think they should be getting everything free -- a mob including liberal journalists whose whole agenda is to make the police look bad in their dealings with these no-job useless breatherz. Be glad in a still-civilized-society (for the moment) that we have well-equipped police to manage this situation. And only one day after BD asked the question how it would be if there were NoPoliceAtAll, you had Ferguson store owners hollering that the police were now not responding to their 911 looting calls (worried about allegations of "abuse" ??).

You are on the wrong side of this situation, CNu, especially defending a pot-saturated felonious gang-banging street punk, against an officer out of whom he had just beaten the crap. And you are conveniently ignoring the numerous reports of witnesses supporting Officer Wilson's account, including being charged at by Brown when shot. Some of those witnesses just have to be hood rats from the projects visible in the background of the street where Brown was justifiably terminated. Hang on, CNu, this will all come out in the inevitable litigation. And when Wilson is ultimately exonerated, all this re-positioned military equipment is going to be absolutely needed..........

CNu said...

lol, BD, I swear to GAWD I couldn't make you up! So much more than a poster-child or digital pinata, you sir, are the quintessential digital aphid. A few deft tap, tap, taps with the old antennae, and voila, a geyser of instructive nectar gushes forth. You couldn't help yourself even if you wanted to. Many thanks for the exceptional returns.

You see, governance is a game of chess, not checkers. This is why your peasant offspring won't be making it out of the internment and resettlement camps, while mine will "see things you wouldn't believe"

If anything you said was either true or correct, the sun would never have set on the British Empire. But it's neither true or correct, and all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't possibly make your simple, linear fantasy of rule by force come true. From the perspective of those tasked with ruling this beast, some hard calculations and hard decisions will have to be taken. These decisions are being taken now in the corridors of power.

It has been decided that your militarized domestic overseer system will be dismantled. It has been decided that cannabis prohibition is coming to an end. It has been decided to put the ugly face of your fear and cognitive impairment on front street for all the world to see.

It has been decided that the 4th Reich needs all its able-bodied soldiers, particularly its most physically adept and vital soldiers, to fight the sino and slavic hordes who will be vying for control of the last great untapped resource supplies on the african and arctic frontiers. The war on black men in America is coming to an end BD, because supporting the unsustainable oxygen-theft and psychological frailty that you represent has no future.

In order for Anglo-Hegemony to flourish and persist, it has to assimilate the Afro-Saxon into the commonwealth, period, or be internally ripped to shreds before it even enjoins the civilization-existential conflicts right around that signpost up ahead.

Naive Tom said...

In order for Anglo-Hegemony to flourish and persist, it has to assimilate the Afro-Saxon into the commonwealth, period, or be internally ripped to shreds before it even enjoins the civilization-existential conflicts right around that signpost up ahead.

Nah, brah, that's too dark and scary. Say it this way: We're all the same.

Naive Tom said...

It's not kumbaya.

CNu said...

Well what exactly is it Tom? Common sense, your purported religion valuing "human dignity", and civil rights enshrined in law has left the silent majority a bunch of mentally and morally crippled not-sees for lo these past 45 years, it's now long overdue for some plain direct talk, in everday terms that ordinary people can understand.

Naive Tom said...

For one thing, I can't believe that throwing bottles and validating the militarized police presence is the right approach. Lawyers are the right approach.

Naive Tom said...

Second thing, I agree with your "dark and scary" picture. Hang together or hang separately is how it is going to work.

BigDonOne said...

@CNu...Do you suppose you could stop condemning the messenger long enough to enlighten us on the finer points of this uber-stoned idyllic self-medicated society you wishfully envision..?? BD suspects you've been too deeply submerged in science fiction to deal realistically with near-term survival. We will see your internment/resettlement and raise you some serious DNS ..........

Vic78 said...

Internment camps?

Naive Tom said...

Not that kind of lawyer. Real working lawyers, paid to do what they're told. You never let a lawyer decide what you want to do. You tell them what you want done.

CNu said...

lol, asking me to "enlighten" you is the equivalent of asking me to teach a goddamned dog to speak english. You've been coming here for almost as many years as there's been a "here". If your two functioning neurons haven't yet passively assimilated the answers to the rhetorical questions you've posed, then you're just not up to the task.

But thanks again for serving as the poster-child of being deeply submerged in something that profoundly interferes with the rudimentary comprehension of conspicuously obvious facts and concepts.

CNu said...

Spoken exactly like a man of means who has enjoyed decades of access and exposure and in consequence of which would never be fucked with by IQ-75 cannon fodder like paschal lamb overseer Wilson - who while dim-witted enough to extrajudicially execute Michael Brown, would know good and goddamned better than to even think about fucking with Tom, or Tom's spouse, or Tom's kids.

BigDonOne said...

@CNu...When SHTF, who do you think will be the first folks rounded-up, resettled and/or DNS'ed..?? It will be the folks causing the S -- those non-tax-paying folks with no resources, marauding and causing the problems. There will be way more than enuff of those to keep the troops and camps fully occupied, and providing fodder for Subrealism to complain about. Dunno how many camps they gots, but it sure ain't enuff for 109m LLOOOOZZ3rz.......

BigDonOne said...

They didn't release MikeB's juvenile record either, so...??

CNu said...

There is a system of participatory victimization going on here in Missouri that's pretty flagrant. I know that the same is true down in southern florida, (can't speak for Miami because it's too cosmopolitan) but I suspect that to varying extents it's true all over. The main difference between Missouri and anyplace else in America is that it's never been systemically and systematically challenged here. Remember, the whole economic machinery of white flight, restrictive housing covenants, and suburban sprawl was engineered in Kansas City beginning in the 1920's.

I keep a copy of my the restrictive housing covenants that came with my house which was built in 1928.

Even the way that banking is done in Missouri, the core business model, harkens back to a very specific type of elite family social network and some banks will only do business with patrician clientele and businesses do business with one another on exactly the same terms.

Ed, I figured out a looooong time ago that if I could crack this most intractable nut in the U.S. - working from where I stand - that the fruits of a success would have considerable impact well outside this city and even this region. Nothing is accidental.

ken said...

Oh my bad, it seems he has such a good reputation the delay in evidence in that case is acceptable...Is the paper correct to say the prosecutor and local police departments disdain, while Burbank with his wonderful reputation can say it may take days, weeks or months? It seems to me if you can point to real actions to show this disdain, great, but this author should know this is pretty typical how evidence is disclosed, and likely does. Which should make us wonder, what's the authors motive.

It's not important for me to believe anything about these men. I want reporting that is accurate, without this fanning of the flames we have been exampled with this article.

CNu said...

Go pro or google glass - and an individual as ballsy as Caleb Michael Files from Kansas City to talk shit to this deranged overseer and put in the work of getting his reactionary image on camera.

This is an open matter, and overseer albers only got suspended, not arrested for assault with a deadly weapon.

Oh yeah, and straight fuck that "bottles" nonsense, we live in the age of IED's and video beheadings..., accept no substitute!

CNu said...

You need to take that not-see shit someplace else then Ken. Cause I've got a rail car full of jet fuel and sea-container full of thermite and I plan on fanning the fuck out of this highly incendiary conflagration until you can't help but see what's up even with your eyes squeezed as tightly shut as possible.

p.s., it's the NYTimes for chrissakes..., the editorial sensibilities thereabouts don't get any more establishmentarian. But those folks are looking at the fringe lunatic shit that your specific brand of politics and policy have wrought Mr. War on Drugs, Mr. War on Terror, Mr. War on the Poor - the way in which you've never had the moral courage to put the BD's in your camp on a tight, tight leash and bring them to curb. Now we see the dogs you've been breeding all this time with their teeth bared and their warped little psyches naked and on display. This is the sub-human vermin you've had sheltering under that big GOP tent all along

Now, the barbarity of what you've orchestrated with your ceaseless rhetoric, deductive gamesmanship and silly-assed imagineering is simply coming home to roost. There it is, embarrassing as hell to see how retrograde, incompetent, uncivilized, unlawful, unsustainable and useless the deliverables emanating from your politics and policies have become.

Naive Tom said...

Lawyers, bro. Step away from the pipe.

CNu said...

Where these ACLU lawyers been all these years while folks been catching hell from the overseers playing dress-up?

Naive Tom said...

Until the past few years, farting around. IMO the ACLU was very slow to react to the loss of constitutional rights that came with the "war on terror." Since around the time of the Jena Six (2007?) they seem to be slowly getting engaged. They seem to have Ferguson front-and-center right now

CNu said...

Note to self, reality evasion and normotic denial not only not exclusive to active and engaged elements..., the monoculture is the monoculture because its passive elements are comfortably numb.

CNu said...

These slugs are now paying active lip-service because the light and heat has got elites worrying about stability of governance. Since it's elites whose donations fund the ACLU, whatever they react to, then their pet civil liberties lapdogs are bound to respond to too.

Dale Asberry said...

Lol, I see BD just like Homer Simpson lying on his side going around in a circle saying, "whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo!"

BigDonOne said...

Translation: CNu's original "innocent 18-yr-old" MB characterization is now permanently inoperative........

BigDonOne said...

This is the second time you folks have come down in favor of an Empty Bag of Proper Skin Color -- (first was Obama in 2008). Face it, BigDon is Truth.......!!!

ken said...

All this hysterics is tied up in me pointing out that someone ignorantly doesn't know that how the police are processing this isn't much different than a parallel case in Salt Lake City, in fact Salt Lake is moving slower. Or maybe they know and still choose to make the accusations anyway.

Your problem here with your tank full of fuel is one of timing. All this work to maybe nail a mayor and 50 white cops can't be your goal with a rail full car of jet fuel. Structural racial accusations why you have a democrat president, democrat attorney general, democrat governor, and democrat PA are not going to shoot very far up the structural change ladder. Do you think you are going to be happy with all that fuel just to see justice served for this one incident?

At least if it was republicans, if it turns out justice is not convicting this cop, you could crack your tank over and burn the whole town and hope the chaos spreads. But what will you do now when all the democrats are overseeing this? Everyone is too fired up right now just to only nail the one bad cop, or even the 50 white cops and republican mayor, but that's the only low hanging fruit available.

Of course we see that with your chant into Mr. war this and Mr. war that, or BD is my fault. The actual issue here...was this cop's use of force unlawful or not and if not, was it criminal; the answers by the justice system either way won't be enough to satisfy.

CNu said...

lol, my bad BD, still got your lip poked out from the other day when I snopes'd some wholly contrived garbage you cited about M. Brown's purported criminal record. I sometimes forget how central this blog is to your daily life.

Naive Tom said...

lol What boomers mean when they call themselves conservative is that they have begun to demand massive cutbacks to spending programs that do not directly benefit them.

CNu said...

The actual issue here

Which part of this remark didn't you understand?Nobody gives a dayyum about these two tragic peasants, both of whose
lives ended around noon with 6 shots on August 9th. Wilson will walk,
just like George Zimmerman walked, and before he's 30, he'll put a gun
in his own mouth the way George Zimmerman ought to.What the trailer trash cop did to the ghetto troll boy was just a trigger. The systemic political issues that this trigger event disclosed is what this is all about.

What this is really and truly all about is the systematic dismantling by the establishment of all the deranged policies and institutions that your wing of the American political spectrum has assembled over the past 40 years with its neverending wars on this, wars on that, wars on common sense and any semblance of intelligence.

Or didn't you get my very first post on this subject a week ago?

BD is my fault

lol, not even I get to take credit for BD. I only provide a projector and a screen in front of which BD shamelessly and obsessively works his singular performance art. The fact that your pretend moral conservatism (cowardly notseeism) provides a partisan big tent under which BD and his ilk can comfortably lodge, that's a whole a different topic, and one that's been explored to exhaustion at Cobb's.

the answers by the justice system either way won't be enough to satisfy.

BINGO! Nothing less than burning your entire partisan edifice to the ground and plowing under the ashes will satisfy. That's a fact. Deal with it.

Constructive_Feedback said...

Brother Ed:

When you say "Held their (government officials) accountable" - please be specific in what you mean?

For every "Ferguson Police Harassment" example I can find you 10 times the number of BLACK INJURIES from promised "Educational Policy Reforms" around various "Mission Accomplished Cities" that were supposed to benefit Black people.

WHAT MAKES "POLICE HARASSMENT" superior to these other injuries dispensed from the government?

CNu said...

Fist tap Vic:Republicans have come to rely more and more on the votes of the elderly, the most government-dependent segment of the population -- a serious complication for a party committed to reducing government. Second, the
Republican donor class has grown more ideologically extreme, encouraging congressional Republicans to embrace ever more radical tactics. Third, the party’s internal processes have rigidified, in ways that dangerously inhibit its ability to adapt to changing circumstances. The GOP can overcome the negative consequences of these changes and, in time, surely will. The ominous question for Republicans is, How much time will the overcoming take?

Constructive_Feedback said...

Excuse me Brother CNu:

I am trying to understand the 'Time Relevance' of Restrictive Covenants upon the situation in Ferguson by which the "Negro" is today relatively underdeveloped AND as he mounts up a "Local Political Takeover" to put "People Who Respect Black People" into power - as the city turns into another "East St Louis" or "Gary IN" - how will these "restrictive covenants" be to blame for the latest "okie doke " scheme?

GARY INDIANA - The sign promising a "New Day In Gary" is not bleached by the sun and tattered by the winds.

Yet EBONY MAGAZINE profits from the time "Back In The Day" in which the "Black Political Power" forces rolled into town, was greeting by the "Black mayor" as they plotted a course for "Black America" = 1972 through 2002.


Naive Tom said...

Maybe I'm missing your point, probably I'm ignorant, but I have not been talking about bringing in leaders. I'm talking about hiring lawyers and telling them to go make legal things happen.

CNu said...

lol, you'll find 10 times the number because you'll skew your sample sizes and compare Ferguson with the rest of the U.S.

However, if you actually knew what you were talking about for a change, you'd not need look any further than an adjacent hamlet in STL called Normandy. In that one out of ninety two hamlets alone, you'll find the 10 times you're looking for. Now remember, Missouri has the second toughest state educational standards in the U.S., so even our mideducated lil'chirrens in a failed school district are superior to the best that a backwoods like Georgia - with its vastly lower educational standards - has to offer.

That said, Ed's characterization of the larger, loosely racially federated black misleadership in St. Louis writ large is right on point. When those sorry-assed 2nd and 3rd line failures are scrutinized, their useless struggles over the past 40 years don't stand up to competent scrutiny.

CNu said...

Off-topic Feed. If you want to engage in peasant partisan squabbles, surely there are places where you can indulge your fetish. This discussion falls under the rubric of two parties one ideology and it has to do with the systematic funding of war-on morons by a disengaged elite that is only now being awakened to the egregious errors of its policy ways.

CNu said...

Who has the gold, rules. Who pays the lawyers dictates what happens.

Since we know the beleaguered citizenry of the gerrymandered hamlet of Ferguson won't be ponying up to free themselves from their colonial occupiers, and since we know their political complaints and malaise have been ignored now for three generations or more, all that you're advocating is a quiet derailment of the passionate violence in the street, which violence in the street is the ONLY thing that has served to galvanize public - and more importantly - elite attention to the messy governance problem that elite inattention and negligence has allowed to fester for waaaaaay too long.

Riot is the voice of the unheard. A whole lot more rioting in a whole lot more cities will be what is required to shift the balance of these structural inequities and unsustainable war-on build-ups nationwide. Now that the eyes of the world are looking dead at uhmurkah's shitty drawls, and said shitty drawls are plainly evident for everybody to see, elites better commence to scrambling quick, fast, and in a hurry.

ken said...

Which part of this remark didn't you understand?..
I understood it, but I was working and didn't refresh the comments before I sent my comment, otherwise I would have adjusted it.

"BINGO! Nothing less than burning your entire partisan edifice to the ground and plowing under the ashes will satisfy. That's a fact. Deal with it."

Perhaps you will have to deal with always being dissatisfied. And all this because I pointed out the clear ignorance or underhanded motives of the New York Times....

What is moral conservatism? I have heard of social conservatism, but you may have to expand moral conservatism for me.

Ed Dunn said...

Politicians and police are accountable through the electoral process and taxes. We have plenty of cities such as in Southern California that ran successful recall efforts (including a California governor) as a precedent. As well as here in the South where police chiefs were fired and prosecutors (Duke raped) was stripped of their bar and removed from office by the taxpayers. In terms of Educational Policy Reforms, once again that is still on the people who could have opt-out on Leave No Child Behind...nothing was done at all here in Ferguson by any of the majority population..all around, absolutely nothing...

CNu said...

I consider you immoral and intentionally so, though in deep denial. In a nutshell, you'd very much like to control the behavior of others by persu(suggestion) but failing that, you're perfectly happy for others to enact horrendous violence against their persons so long as they comply with what you consider acceptable behavior.

I don't expect to be dissatisfied for very much longer now. As Frum pointed out, the foundation of your polity is elderly and unsustainably expensive to maintain on the dole. Moreover, with WW-III pending, the Fourth Reich will need all its able-bodied soldiery, especially those most vital and with certain distinct advantages for slogging it out on the African continent.

CNu said...

Best believe they segregated their own children away from the turrible little black chirrens and maintained their little lily ethnic enclaves in parochial and private schools. It's an awful way to run a city, but in the state which pioneered white flight, block busting, restrictive housing covenants, and suburban sprawl, what else would you expect?

Ed Dunn said...

What is more interesting is this goes on probably more widespread in the Hispanic majority areas throughout the Southeast like Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, etc. Either people not voting or these elections are gamed in some fashion..

ken said...

That still doesn't distinguish what moral conservatism is compared to social conservatism. I am guessing the word term "you're" is not pointed at me as an individual but who you believe I am a grouped with. Again, please note, if Tom saw me do this, all we could do is go into some sort of distraction exercise: "there he goes again, putting words in someone else's mouth" or liar, or what is truth", etc. . Or you would answer, you have no idea who I am or what I do, etc, or what my political ideology happens to be.

"You very much like to control the behavior of're perfectly happy for others to enact horrendous violence against their persons so long as they comply..

I have no idea what you would use for an example, I have come out for legalizing all drugs so long as element of this libertarian allows us to let people who make choices reap the natural consequences of their choices. I can point what behaviors are successful and which fail, but I think its patently false to think I would advocate violence against those who practice failing behaviors. And I am for the aid of others in the form of organizations or individuals or families that will create some accountability between the one being helped and the one providing the help.

"As Frum pointed out, the foundation of your polity is elderly and unsustainably expensive to maintain on the dole."

If you are using the word "polity" in the way its defined:
"something (such as a country or state) that has a government : a politically organized unit : a form of government"

Yes of course we know our government is unsustainable. I believe you have read me write more than once that I am well aware no government last forever, and this government will fall, I suspect before you and men die (we're about the same age.). What I don't get is why you don't consider it your government falling also, you only talk of it in terms of my government falling.

You act like you are somehow immune to any blowback when the government falls. When you say some entity like ISIS should double its efforts, its like you think they somehow will look at you like you are one of them and move you out of the group of tied up men they are spraying with bullets. You admire these hard men as they run through villages demanding the people believe and behave like them or die a public humiliating hard deaths. As they take the women and kids as slaves.

Sorry to say your polity is my polity, you can act like you're above it all your one ideology two party crap, but if so, what difference does Frum's ideas make? Why does it matter if republicans or democrats win in your foundational spouted belief of this one ideology two party rule?

Anyways all I really wanted to know is, are you calling moral conservatism social conservatism or is there some difference.

CNu said...

It would have been more accurate to term you a "cultist". Because I didn't feel like looking it up, I used a less precise term pulled top-of-mind to approximate the idea. Paul Rosenberg describes you here:Last week, Glenn Greenwald wrote an influential post, “Do Bush followers have a political ideology?”,
in which he argued that Bush supporters are cultists who do not possess
a political ideology, but instead use the terms “conservative” and
“liberal” to identify members of the cult and those outside the cult,
respectively. While I agree with the vast majority of Glenn’s analysis, I
believed he was mistaken in one respect—the cultism is the ideology. What’s more, it is also a form of conservatism, as I argued in an initial response, “It's The Ideology, Smarty!” at My Left Wing.
Here I want to expand on those remarks in a series of posts, and place
them in a larger framework that draws on a variety of different
disciplines and perspectives. At the core of this endeavor is a
definition of conservatism, as follows.

Here’s my thesis: Conservatism is a form (indeed the original form) of identity politics. It is expressed through
multiple forms of political ideology based on justifying elite rule and
the division of the human race into dualized classes (ideal and
counter-ideal) in terms of some “natural” moral order.

Constructive_Feedback said...

Ah Ha!!!

Cut what if "A People" via:

* Their media that brands itself as "Their Media"
* Their elected officials who claim "I am fighting for you"
* Their activist organizations who reserve the right to INDICT a target AND to walk past a target who, if indicted would create A SELF-INDICTMENT of the "nefarious alliance" that both associate with......


Can you still conclude, sir that an ELECTION RESULT if evidence of ABJECT "ACCOUNTABILITY"?


Everything else is POPULARITY and this is why billionaires purchase MEDIA CORPORATIONS in order to control popular opinions.

Vic78 said...

They aren't voting. Democrats don't campaign for their votes. And the communities aren't organized on the ground. The state Democratic parties in red states are incompetent good ole boy clubs. They really aren't trying to work with non whites like that. They also look to the the national party to do all the work for them.

Vic78 said...

I'm not letting the residents off the hook. They have a big part to play in that mess.

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