Sunday, October 23, 2011

who's not a salesman?


Video - Salesman by Albert Maysles

Sales IS the epitome of the psychopathology of American Capitalism. Salesmen capitalize on weaknesses due to human cognitive errors to dishonorably extract consumer's creative value (their hard-earned money). Bosses capitalize on salesmen by using same manipulative techniques on employees to extract most of their time and creativity. Sales bosses do absolutely nothing creative and yet extract most of the productive value of consumers and their employees. Dale.
Why do you impart (negative) morality to sales? I see sales itself, as inherently amoral. Surely you are not against consciously influencing the decisions of other people? Or consciously influencing yourself? MLK, Gandhi, Steve Jobs --and of course Hitler, David Duke, Bill Gates :). Whether I'm selling crack or a fitness regime, myself as a social success, a palatable worldview and coping strategy, or really killer solar panels, the goal is always to influence the behavior or worldview of others. DD.

43 comments:

nanakwame said...

the goal is always to influence the behavior or worldview of others. DD
That is given, we of consciousness must remember it every day. This is what my Favorite writer says:
After 1945, we have been working so hard and getting rich. But that kind of thing doesn’t continue anymore. We have to change our values. We have to think about how we can get happy. It’s not about money. It’s not about efficiency. It’s about discipline and purpose. What I wanted to say is what I’ve been saying since 1968: we have to change the system. I think this is a time when we have to be idealistic again.”I asked him what that idealism looked like, if he perhaps saw the United States as a model.“I don’t think people think of America as a model anymore,” he said. “We don’t have any model at this moment. We have to establish the new model.” The Fierce Imagination of Haruki Murakami NY Times 10/21/2011.It is of no use to argue with someone who debates from a froze box, all new models are frightening and demand a transformation. We move to clan and comfort in a minute, even the most brightest,  the gems of novels and literacy.See what he says about novels written in present future and one's written in past future.

Tom said...

DD: What is the distinction between amoral and immoral?

CNu said...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l5783366n3330220/ Darwin’s great discovery, announced in On the Origin of Species, is that the fit and diversity of organic form are the consequence of a single process, descent with modification. The Origin
offers us a radical and powerful account of the fit and diversity of
organic form, but it is schematic. There are a number
of possible ways in which the details might be filled out.
Here I discuss, and contrast two. One, I call ‘Replicator Biology’
is the orthodox extension of Darwin’s theory that held sway
throughout much of the twentieth Century. However, as a result
of recent empirical and philosophical work on inheritance,
development and the metaphysics of population change, we are beginning
to glimpse an alternative, I call it ‘Organism-Centered
Biology’. Despite the significant differences between these
interpretations,
each is consistent with the process of evolution outlined in
the Origin of Species. Which of these interpretations offers a better account of the process of descent with modification ought to be a guiding
question in the next phase of the research program inaugurated 150 years ago by Darwin. 

DD said...

Well, I mean it in the first definition provided, but for lulz and to play into our hosts thematic  style, I'll include both:

a·mor·al
adjective 1.not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.
2.having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person.

CrescentEtc said...

"Sales IS the epitome of the psychopathology of American Capitalism."  Sales isn't causitive, its a symptom of a diseased system (systems in the West).  A Salesman or Salesperson (cringe at the PC(!)) is just a cog in a huge wheel.  Sales is a symptom of the psychopathology of Western Capitalism, that's what I think.  Now, anyone protesting in New York?  :-)

CNu said...

rotflmbao..., serves me right.

expecting swinging for the fences from the author of Man's Game, Bitch, we get a mincing Paul Smithesque pair of dictionary quotes...,

CNu said...

Hominidae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Hominidae
The great apes show considerable abilities for cognition and empathy.
Chimpanzees make tools and use them to acquire foods and for social displays; they have sophisticated hunting strategies requiring cooperation, influence and rank; they are status conscious, manipulative and capable of deception; they can learn to use symbols and understand aspects of human language including some relational syntax, concepts of number and numerical sequence

DD said...

Crescent, you're trying to sell me some psychobabble nonsense about the moral collapse of a capitalistic world. You just aren't good at it! ;)

 Look, sales is, as some of the newer posts are hinting at, framing of an issue, causing you to justify actions or beliefs based on a different framework. CNu toys with all of us constantly, to my infinite pleasure, not quite selling an explicit position, but easily and demonstrably knocking down the positions advanced for why things are the way they are from all parties who visit this corner of the web. You sell yourself on the narrative that is your life and code of behavior, but if you can't realize your rationales and justifications are flimsy at best, given how shitty and miniscule your actual knowledge of what's REAL is, then you are playing yourself.

Too far down the rabbit hole yet? To flip the coin, yes: Man's Game, Bitch *. Sharpen your sword and bring it, because a healthy level of self-doubt and introspection is no excuse for fat, lazy, and soft. Be prepared to drive the herd where they need to go, whether you fashion yourself as a wolf or a sheepdog: the sheep DO always deserve your scorn, whether you've chosen to protect or cull the herd.

*which of course is actually framed here to show the absurdity of taking seriously and unnecessarily humiliating those you obviously outclass, thereby clowning yourself. The onion has many layers, even for you sensei.

I think C-Lo, Goodie Mob era, says it best .

Always a pleasure gentlemen!

CNu said...

Now THAT'S what I'm talkin bout!!!
And there's a fine line between love and hate you see

Came way too late, but baby I'm on it..

And there's a fine line between love and hate you see

Came way too late, but baby I'm on it..

Can't worry bout, what a nigga think now see

That's Liberation and baby I want it..

Can't worry bout, what another nigga think

Now that's Liberation and baby I want it..

CrescentEtc said...

It is evident that you are a fucking idiot.  Your assumptions are incredibly stupid.  Real, you have no idea!  Being stupid is not a good reason to err... rationalise that others are because you don't understand what they are talking about (yawn!).  I just hinted at something, but hey!  If you are an idiot just leave it alone and accept the limitations of your intelligence.  I don't know you, but you come across as utterly obnoxious.  Now piss off and do something useful with your time.

(Yawn)!

DD said...

It's evident that you lost. Go sharpen your sword. Shoo! Also, hugs and kisses sucka.

Since I'm in a musical mood:

The Truth



 

Tom said...

DD: Surely you don't think definition #1 applies to human beings deceiving other human beings to get their money? 

Greg Thrasher said...

YAWN...

DD said...

Depends on your definition of deception, and even then, the motivation of the deceiver.

I gotta go pick up my


little brother
and teach him some sales skills, I'll get in depth with this later tonight.

In the meantime, anyone checked out my site? Does that sell you on a different perception of my argument? :)

Dale Asberry said...

I've taken some time to think through this more. The thing being that this very issue drives at the core of who I am and I wanted to be more than sure that I'm not lying to myself. (It is liminally fascinating that CNu put the "alec baldwin", "how
to spot a liar", and "the pattern behind self-deception" posts up
(nearly) together, too.)

And so, I will define who I am: a traveler searching for truth. It is my culture of competency.

Man's game, bitch. Life is hard.
This statement is at the very core of what defines me... it is my primary 'shorthand' test for determining if I'm lying to myself or not: if it's hard, then I'm not listening (to the truth).

Here's an example of what I mean and which I encounter every day. I write software. In the process of writing software, the logic that I envision in my head does not produce the results that I expect. This, by itself, is a matter-of-fact occurrence. The situation becomes 'hard' the moment I become frustrated or angry that I'm not getting my expected results. As I am very good at what I do, these situations almost always result from unknown/undocumented behavior and my refusal to acknowledge that I don't know why the logic didn't result in the behavior I expected. I could get frustrated like every other programmer that I've watched, but that makes the work hard. The moment I accept that I'm not listening is the moment that the difficulty disappears. I start using my tools to discover the source of the undocumented behavior which then leads to my understanding of it which then leads to a modification of my original logic choice and results in the expected behavior. The truth of that system.

I quickly realized that the same test of frustration and/or anger preceded the arising difficulties in every other area of my life. Over time, I've gotten better at recognizing those situations, and, in many cases, can pre-recognize and prevent the resultant hard situations altogether.
Man's game, bitch. Life is hard.
Life is not hard. Life just is. The truth just is. Truth is measurable and predictable. If life hands me something unexpected or unknown, it is an opportunity to learn more truths. If life is hard, it is solely because I have made it so.

Surely you are not against consciously
influencing the decisions of other people? Or consciously influencing
yourself?

Surely, I am. If a person is influenced by my words or actions, then it will be due to their understandings of the truths (and unintentional, uncaught, unfixed untruths) that I have demonstrated filtered through their belief system. Belief systems are infinitely malleable and are perfectly capable of not ever squaring up with the truth. Belief systems can be handy -- they can provide approximations to truths when the actual truths are unknown. Regardless, someone else's belief system is not my concern. I can spend the rest of my days pondering CNu's (or BD's, or your) belief system but that will not get me any closer to what I may be seeking nor will it give me the chance to share that which I may know or can do.

[more to come later]

Tom said...

DD--"Depends on your definition of deception, and even then, the motivation of the deceiver.""anyone checked out my site? Does that sell you on a different perception of my argument? :)"

;) Are you asking me to step outside the realm of amorality to make that call?

CNu said...

http://youtu.be/o_Ycw0d_Uow everything else is merely conversation...,

Tom said...

Dale, that's good.

"The moment I accept that I'm not listening is the moment that the difficulty disappears. "

DD said...

 Egoless righteousness channeled through the vessel of self?  Effortless being either seen and emulated as truth by those less enlightened, or ignored? The ecstatic ease of being wholly at peace with yourself and your actions? I guess saints and psychos have more in common than I thought. Certainly cuts down on the reaction time, puts those lowly tortured souls like myself at a distinct disadvantage.

Your perfection of personal presentation is built on the backs of billions and the power of eons. Did you know engineers are five times as likely as the rest of the population to be extremists?

I sometimes envy the wolves and their surety, their perfect place in nature. I envy the sheep their simple being and easy paralysis. I certainly weary of serving an imperfect master, civilization being what it is, what with the whole doomed to failure thing. Yet I futilely rage against the natural order, as my imperfection is my unique trait in the big wide world, and all I know to do in the face of an entropic universe.

I'll keep holding the line as best I can figure, you keep on keeping on keeping on, and we'll share a drink and good cheer if we cross paths.

DD said...

To keep chatting at myself, I force myself to be troubled by the problems of the world as I see them, to try and fix them as best I know how, and to realize I am complicit in the situation we find ourselves in.

To sell is to give a fuck and to attempt to enact change, whether frivolously or meaningfully. The action itself is amoral, but the lack of it is inhuman.

If you're saying that all you can and should control is #1, then you're as bad as Big Don with considerably less effort.

It's a man's game because children don't take responsibility for others, and life is hard because if your life is easy, you aren't paying attention to the trail of destruction you are leaving in your wake.

CNu said...

The next speaker, of course, needs no introduction to no one.

l'd like to introduce the designer and theological consultant...on the books that we sell,

Dr. Melbourne I. Feltman, Vice President, Consolidated Book Publishers.
                   
This is a little token of our appreciation.

l'll try to read to you what we've inscribed on it.

''Melbourne l. Feltman, Ph.D.,   
                   
the world's greatest salesman of the world's best seller.

- With gratitude, Mid-American.'' - Thank you.
                 
There are many people who know the Bible.

There are many people who can quote from the Bible.

But you're somewhat different.

You know the business. And what is that business ?

Isn't it the business that we hear when...the young boy,Jesus, was lost for a matter of three days or so ?

And they said to him, ''Why didn't you follow us ? Why didn't you come with us ?

We were worried. We were scared to death. Where were you ?''

And he said, very quietly and very simply, ''Whist ye not that l am about my Father's business ?''

Now, l don't intend to portray the fact that the Father's business, in itself, is selling Bibles for dollars and cents...and for the commercial aspect of it but l do believe the good that comes from the selling of Bibles...and the getting of Bibles and the reading of Bibles...is definitely identified with the Father's business.

Some of you, at one time or another, may or may not have had a higher income, but you have never held a higher position of esteem...in the minds of the world or in your own self-satisfaction...than you now hold,
knowing what you're doing...about your Father's business.

Hold your heads very high.

Be very proud of your position.

Stop thinking in terms of Bible peddling, because I am confident that once you realize...what you are doing for others, you in your own esteem will rise so high--not with conceit, but in humility knowing that you have
the privilege and the power...to be of service to others.

And with all my heart, for the coming year and for many years to come, God grant you an abundant harvest. Thank you.

Dale Asberry said...

Horseshit.

Gideons.

Dale Asberry said...

If what he has (bible printer, whatever) is so important to fulfill the father's business, why the hell isn't he giving it away? If it is so important to others why is it not shared freely, but treated as if it's scarce -- hoarded and limited by sales?

That is the crux of the lie in sales and salesmanship. The truth is abundant because it is inescapable.

CNu said...

Careful with that axe Eugene..., the Gideons having been paying it forward for generations now - no strings attached. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideons_International

CNu said...

I beg to differ, understanding and embodiment of the truth is extremely scarce because the truth isn't listened for or listened to anymore. It has become for most intents and purposes a hidden world.

Dale Asberry said...

That's exactly my point.

Dale Asberry said...

As if we humans in large have ever really tried to listen for truth. Those who are capable of finding and seeing that hidden world will have the Darwinian edge.

Salesmen are liars because the truth will exist even without them offering it up in exchange. And they are low-down, dirty scumbags for wanting something in exchange for it.

CNu said...

Those who are capable of finding and seeing that hidden world will have the Darwinian edge.

history says otherwise...,

Salesmen are liars because the truth will exist even without them
offering it up in exchange. And they are low-down, dirty scumbags for
wanting something in exchange for it.


why you soapboxing so hard on the customer relationship management profession?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiBh_JinGbE&feature=related

Dale Asberry said...

Egoless righteousness channeled through the vessel of self?
It has to be egoless so that you don't dip into a pit of absolute despair. Nature Neuroscience: How unrealistic optimism is maintained in the face of reality. But I'm not quite sure what you're getting on about it being righteousness.

Effortless being either seen and emulated as truth by those less enlightened, or ignored?
Effortless as in the sense that a wall is immovable and with the 'enlightenment' from recognizing the block, I can now move around it.

Certainly cuts down on the reaction time, puts those lowly tortured souls like myself at a distinct disadvantage.
Exactly, lol! This is the crux of the Darwinian advantage CNu was questioning the existence of. In my programming work, it doesn't actually put my coworkers at a disadvantage. It puts me at an advantage because they know they can come to me with hard problems and I'll find the cause. I get kudos and recognition and my coworkers get their work done.

my imperfection is my unique trait in the big wide world
Make no mistake, I am not suggesting that I'm perfect at this. Hell, I'm not even very good at it. The difference is in the fact that I do it at all.

Your perfection of personal presentation is built on the backs of
billions and the power of eons. Did you know engineers are five times as
likely as the rest of the population to be extremists?

People are simultaneously drawn to, and afraid of, me due to my relentless and ruthless efforts in eliminating the lies constantly streaming around in my head. I have no perfection, only constant, vigilant work to rise above my personal human cognitive errors of which salesmen strive to thwart by taking advantage of. My disgust with sales is solely a protection mechanism for my weak skills in protecting myself from myself.

we'll share a drink and good cheer if we cross paths.
We'll share more than good cheer. The fact that we are here learning deep truths and questioning ourselves sets us apart from the billions around us. I may get on about Little Don being a nitwit and Nana living in a magical thinking dream world, but they are both here, hearing truths expounded (if not listening very closely) and bringing their own truths to share which sets them apart from the unwashed masses.

Dale Asberry said...

To keep chatting at myself
I'm catching up. Needed to digest this stuff a bit better so that I could present it outside of my own head.

To sell is to give a fuck and to attempt to enact change, whether frivolously or meaningfully.
To give is to give a fuck and to attempt to enact change. See my response to CNu about the bible seller.

If you're saying that all you can and should control is #1, then you're as bad as Big Don with considerably less effort.
Why did you distort this by saying "#1"? The only person you can ever control is yourself. Even then, control is an illusion - this is what Gurdjieff is getting on about. But what I can and will do is watch and see who is ready for the truths that I am aware of and then share the truths freely as a gift.

It's a man's game because children don't take responsibility for others
Amen.

and life is hard because if your life is easy, you aren't paying
attention to the trail of destruction you are leaving in your wake.

We may be miscommunicating due to a difference in our definition of 'hard'. Let me clarify my thoughts using slightly different language. Life is constant, neverending, effortful Work. Both in overcoming the trail of destruction left behind and preventing the destruction from occurring in the first place.

Dale Asberry said...

why you soapboxing so hard on the customer relationship management profession?
Because they lie when they claim the answer can be found through them. Because they take/extract from others for that answer which they didn't have to pay for (even if they did), and they do it by preying on our weaknesses - our human cognitive errors - and encourage the buyer to be a willing participant in that lie. Why manage something that exists in abundance? Solely to use the choke points as a funnel to extract value from others as a tick parasitically extracts blood from it's host.

history says otherwise...,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enjXPXBw3e4
"Of which, this is the sixth version."
"The anomaly is systemic."

nanakwame said...

There is an old African proverb when looking for your best character, don't look for it in the market place - The Gideons, that is funny. Folks are going to look at Steve Jobs again, he didn't know his father but he had the ruthless Arabic Merchant personality, hmmm

CNu said...

The salesman is shearing the sheep of its surplus wool, no coercion involved - sounds like God's work to me.

Moss: What's your name?

Blake: FUCK YOU, that's my name!! You know why, Mister? 'Cause
you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand
dollar BMW. That's my name!! (to Levene) And your name is "you're wanting." And you can't play in a man's game. You can't close them. (at a near whisper) And you go home and tell your wife your troubles. (to everyone again) Because only one thing counts in this life! Get them to sign on the line which is dotted! You hear me, you fucking faggots?

(Blake flips over a blackboard which has two sets of letters on it: ABC, and AIDA.)

Blake: A-B-C. A-always, B-be, C-closing. Always be closing!
Always be closing!! A-I-D-A. Attention, interest, decision, action.
Attention -- do I have your attention? Interest -- are you interested? I
know you are because it's fuck or walk. You close or you hit the
bricks! Decision -- have you made your decision for Christ?!! And
action. A-I-D-A; get out there!! You got the prospects comin' in; you
think they came in to get out of the rain? Guy doesn't walk on the lot
unless he wants to buy. Sitting out there waiting to give you their
money! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it?

Dale Asberry said...

Dude. That shit's straight up, messed up psychopathic manipulation and extraction. Are you seriously suggesting it is the model to follow?

Dale Asberry said...

Been remiss looking over at P6, but this is what I think... On Bullshit

CNu said...

Guy doesn't walk on the lot unless he wants to buy. Sitting out there waiting to give you their money! Are you gonna take it? Are you man enough to take it?Help me out here Dale, which part of the above is psychopathic?

CNu said...

Wiseacring - http://books.google.com/books?id=2xwnInGze5sC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=gurdjieff+wiseacring&source=bl&ots=eXf-ToRxDn&sig=Ls9bm7d_KwDkEi5av3YQfbBeEuk&hl=en&ei=Q8KlTvjTCcussAKHgpmaCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=gurdjieff%20wiseacring&f=false

Suggestibility - http://dennislewisblog.com/2009/07/28/gurdjieff-suggestibility-receptivity/

Co-dependent aspects of a  Janus-headed coin...,

Dale Asberry said...

Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2]) is a mental disorder
characterized primarily by a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow
emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness. Psychopaths are highly prone
to antisocial behavior and abusive treatment of others, and are very
disproportionately responsible for violent crime. Though lacking empathy
and emotional depth, they often manage to pass themselves off as normal
people by feigning emotions and lying about their pasts.

The very foundation and premise of it. The need to "take it". The very existence of the realty office. The lies of "you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand dollar BMW". The bullshit of "FUCK YOU, that's my name!!" What happens if those salesmen all walked out? FUCK YOU has nothing and produces nothing until he manipulates someone else into believing and acting on his nonsense.

Why does property have to be bought/sold for us to exist or even thrive? Houses can be built for a fraction of the price they are sold at. And, it used to be a cooperative, communitarian activity. Still is for groups like the Amish. Basic human need for shelter resolved. Nothing taken by anyone. No one participating in the lie about needing more property, or a bigger house, or a better location. If more, bigger, better is needed, the community decides how to resolve it. Sounds an awful damn lot like open source communities. Everyone involved is directly linked and so preventing those lies.

I'm looking out my window right now at the dead, raped soil where farmers have extracted calories. In a few years, after I've established my full permaculture forest garden, I'll be able to partake in the food that the garden has shared with me through the production of excess as a result of my gifts to my forest in helping it thrive. The relationship is mutual and consensual and a result of the productive efforts of all parties. All parties are directly linked.

Dale Asberry said...

Where and how? Give me proof and I'll fix it.

CNu said...

Lol...,

Wasn't about you, was about the condition of your species...,

You and DD each so identified with your position(s) that you each lost sight of the fact that this thread posed a general kwestin, which kwestin you mutually and reciprocally escalated into an awesome battle for contradictoryvalidation.

These humans are a neverending source of unintended self-disclosure....,

DD said...

This thread was set up as an either or, and I got to play the big-bad foil, much to my delight. The two columns, the chosen images, the cast was set we just needed to start the play at that point. (Shit CNu, you're the director! And I always think the chink in your armor is that you always assume that you are off stage and invisible.)

As usual you obscure your own thoughts semi-successfully boss, but one thing is clear to me, the answer to the question. Dale, you may not be buying, but you're selling like a motherfucker!

;)

Dale Asberry said...

ROTFLMAO!

I just laughed some wine through my nose reading that!

CNu said...

This thread was set up as an either/or

nope.

a both/and

Thank you both for playing so vigorously.