nakedcapitalism | In America you always had two systems of justice, but it’s
particularly bad right now. So it’s just like if you commit fraud, if
murder people, as long as you do it with a spreadsheet, you get a bonus
instead of a jail sentence. And I think that’s a crisis. It is also the
crisis that we’re dealing with, with big tech. It is the crisis… Mark
Zuckerberg and Facebook, they have been caught for fraud multiple times,
lying to advertisers, lying to publishers knowingly to induce more
spending on Facebook. There are multiple consent decrees with the
Federal Trade Commission. It’s similar with the other firms as well.
They routinely lie, commit perjury and whatnot. And that’s kind of like a
legacy of this policy framework and ideological framework that we
inherited from the Bush administration and the Obama administration of
simply not enforcing the rule of law against the powerful.
So that’s I think the dynamic that we’re dealing with today and it’s
across every sector of the economy, right? It’s not just opioids, it’s
not just big tech, it’s kind of everywhere. And what this does is two
things. When you have effectively lawlessness for white collar elites,
it both penalizes honest business people who cannot compete when they’re
not willing to lie, steal and cheat. If the other guy’s allowed to lie,
steal and cheat and you don’t want to do that, you lose, right? So it
undermines honest business. And then it also creates a situation where
criminals become the pinnacle of society. And I think we saw that with
Trump, where Trump… Cy Vance who was the DA of Manhattan, a Democrat. He
had them dead to rights on real estate fraud years ago, way before he
was kind of in politics. And he just… Trump’s lawyer gave Cy Vance
campaign money and Cy Vance didn’t bring the case.
And so if he had just brought that case, if he had said, this is a
criminal act to defraud people of their money, Trump wouldn’t have been
in politics, right? But because he didn’t, Trump was in politics. And I
think what people saw in 2016 was, well, they’re all crooks. So I’m
going to pick the guy that appeals to me. And the thing is, is that
analysis, they’re all crooks, is right. They are all crooks. Not
everyone obviously. But the structure of our elite society, if you look
at it, it’s just designed to incentivize criminal behavior, lying,
cheating, and stealing at the highest level. And that’s the reaction…
We’re seeing a reaction to that and there are many different reactions
to that. One of them is this sort of Trumpist reaction. Another one is
kind of the Lina Khan and the FTC reaction. But that’s where our
politics is right now.
And the Biden administration is kind of a transition moment, right?
Just like the Trump administration was kind of a transition moment to a
new kind of politics. We’re not totally sure what that’s going to be. I
think that, that’s similar with the Biden ministration. It’s a
transition moment to a new form of politics. And we’re a little bit
unsure about whether we’re going to address this problem with the rule
of law. It’s not just criminal law. It’s also antitrust law, insider
trading, kind of all of finance. And you can look at SPACs, that’s just
corporate behavior, insider dealing. Are we going to address that in a
meaningful way? Are we going to restore equal political rights to all,
or are we going to go and kind of transition sort of officially into an
oligarchy and shed the vestiges of democracy that we have?
Rob Johnson:
Well, I think the fact that Donald Trump got elected in 2016 and his,
if you will, bumper sticker, his credo was the system is rigid and
people felt like they were hearing what they understood and it appealed
to them out of their despair or their despondency related to where the
system was. And I would say what’s perhaps hopeful now is after four
years of Donald Trump and the January 6th insurrection, some of the
people in power are afraid of going back to that, to a repeat
performance. And while they may be under the same pressures, money and
politics and enforcements and revolving doors for senior public
officials enticed what you might call to not enforce or to enforce and
subsidize powerful interests, all of this collectively frightens elected
officials that they may be sending us in the direction of an
authoritarian and perhaps violent person who does not abide by any
rules.
So I think that your diagnosis is exactly right, and this place, this
limbo you describe with the Biden administration is fascinating. They
are at what that blues singer with my name, Robert Johnson, called the
crossroads. They got to choose the path. But let’s talk a little bit
about… You’d said with regard to Mark Zuckerberg or others, who’s going
to call out the truth here? I mean, you do, but many think tanks are tax
deductible, what would you call it? Marketing institutions for power.
That’s where they get their source of funding. Many institutions in the
media depend on advertising. Many universities depend upon donors and
wealthy alumni. And even the arts now depend on big corporate power for
structure of live shows, radio promotion, visibility that inspire sales.
Where does the truth come from and where does the impetus for deep
structural reform in response to the despair of a Trump like return? How
do you see that?
Matt Stoller:
It’s a really good question. And I think that the truth, this is
going to sound cheesy, but I think that the truth lies in the heart of
the public. I think the public has views about how politics works and
politicians respond to those views. And you have a bunch of elite
institutions, which I think are corrupt across the board. But the public
kind of creates the wind. Those elite institutions are kind of like the
sailboat, right? And you can put the sail in lots of different ways,
but ultimately if the wind is blowing in one direction or the other,
that determines what you can do more than how amazing the boat is.
But the boat is something that you can control. So you’re kind of
looking at… Elites like to look at the boat and decide, should we do
this thing or should we use that sail or this other mechanism? But the
wind is what really matters. And I think one thing that I’ve noticed,
and I think people don’t really… Particularly Democrats, they don’t want
to admit it but Obama was a really bad president and it matters that he
was a really bad president. That his policies-
… That he was a really bad president. He pursued policies that
concentrated wealth and power into the hands of corrupt actors. Not
necessarily for bad reasons. He might’ve been doing it in good faith.
It’s not a personal comment on him. But the consequences of his policies
were horrific, and they made us a weaker country, an angrier country, a
more frustrated country. The opioid crisis exploded on his watch. And
it wasn’t that the Republicans were mean to him. He had bad ideas. And
he used his political power to pursue those bad ideas. He put people in
like Geithner and Michael Froman and a whole bunch of others to do bad
things, to offshore jobs. And they did it because they thought to bail
out Wall Street, to enact a foreclosure crisis, to essentially grant
amnesty for white collar executives for crime.